WR Comparison

Good homework Wiggin.

The stat that stands out to me is the Pass Attempts, 2001=93, 2002=108. The comparable receivers in your post all had a minimum of 159 pass attempts last year alone. Marvin Harrison had as many last year as Moose the last two years. Either he isn't getting open enough to justify being a primary target, or our QB is not seeing him when he is open.

 

and this coming from someone that takes useless argurments to levels previously unknown on this board, really hurts. and you were chastising someone for their rebuttal? if the best you can manage is a personal attack then you have no business chastising anyone about anything..

 

listen I'm not trying to bad mouth... we all have our "guys" the one we cheer for... sometimes we over do it... you're doing it now

 

Headcase, this is exactly what I was doing that started our debate on the other thread. 45catfan made a comment that Moose's main flaw was his dependability on 3rd down. I stated that my recollection differed and that I had many memories of "Moose making clutch 3rd down plays". At that point you chimed in and said I had a "selective memory". I don't always trust my memory so I took that to heart and looked simply at last years play by play to see what he did. I reported my findings in that thread for the chips to fall. Is my evaluation of 3rd down plays to debate a comment that Moose is not dependable on 3rd down's not exaclty the use of stats you say above is valid?

 

See what happens when I go away for while? Geez.

I'd like to respond to Head Case's arguments. I'd like to, but I don't really have the time, patience, or intrest. I got an op/ed dissertation on War and Peace to give out and I haven't even read the thing.

Moose is exactly what he is, and what he was last year. A good possession reciever with size and strength. He doesn't get great seperation even in health, and will likely miss a game or two because of his hamstring, which he has suffered each year, even his Pro Bowl year of 1999. Occassionally he will make a big play deep, but even then it's because he out fought for the ball, pushed off, or broke a tackle. Owens does drop a whole lot more balls than Moose, and makes a whole lot more than Moose, but he's a whole lot more dangerous, even if Moose had a QB worth a damn.


I too think, or my perception is the dropped balls label on Moose is grossly unfair. Wiggin's stats support that. And while stats can be misleading, they can be successful in backing up one's perception in a debate. Stats are not opinions, but evidence, and opinions suppored by evidence are stronger.

As for 2000, I'd take that a drop a game from Moose for what was his best, most productive year. His drops may have been up, but he was our offense that year and I'd love to see him return to that form. Because it'd mean we'd have a decent quarterback.

As for the rest, too much crying. Everyone here in this thread has called some peole some names before. No reason to get the vapors and write a sociology report.

Seriously, cut it out. Before I go and bring out the D word again.

 

Trash.

You had clarified your position on "formidable" and I understood and had no big argument with your position. I was only giving Mags shit here since he was dishing it out to me ... playing with his words the way he is so prone to do with mine.

>> this is exactly what I was doing that started our debate on the other thread. 45catfan made a comment that Moose's main flaw was his dependability on 3rd down.

and i think i stated my amazement that you would go to such trouble. and as stated i would have never argued for his 3rd-down point as i figured it to be false when he stated it. i think Moose to be pretty indiscriminate as to when he decides to drop a ball. i had no problems with your efforts or your stats in that instance. your stats were pretty cut and dried and you proved you point well. although i will say, that concluding that he was better than Smith last year does not make a case for him being a good receiver. it only shows what we all knew before you started your exercise and that is that Smith was worse than awful last year.

and as i already tried to clarify, my reference to the "selective memory" was only in regards to how you didn't seem to remember any of Moose's drops but could remember all of Smiths. i wasn't trying to disrespect you or talk shit. i certainly wasn't arguing on the side of the 3rd-down thing.

Piper ... if you want to bring out the D word again, have at it. It only bothered me the first time because I didn't think you were of such makeup as to sink to such levels. Now that I know better, you can crawl in the gutters all you like and it will not surprise me again.

>> Owens does drop a whole lot more balls than Moose . . . Wiggin's stats support that.

That's what I love about the argument. You (and I am speaking in general to the Moose lovers) will cling to the portion of the stats that you think support Moose as fact and then ignore them when making a comparison to Owens. Make up your mind. Either the stats are fact in your mind, or they are not.

>> As for 2000, I'd take that ... a drop a game from Moose for what was his best, most productive year.

okay, so maybe i stand corrected here. I was thinking 1999 was his all-pro year and the year he surprised me. I was thinking that in 2000 he started reverting to the Moose with bad hands.

 

First, what I said was this.

good possession reciever......Owens does drop a whole lot more balls than Moose.......but he's a whole lot more dangerous

If you are going to use dots, use them correctly. You wouldn't want me to do this;

Because that wouldn't make any sense. You can't use the Chewbacca defense here.


Stats are facts, or evidence. But they must be interpreted. Think of it like fingerprints. Maybe you just picked it up to clean it, and set it down. Maybe you used it to shoot the messenger. I don't know, cause no one saw me do it and I cleaned the handle anyway.

In essense, I'm not sure what your point is. Owens does have more drops. But he is better, as stated? You disagree? What facts am I ignoring in this assessment? Are you on LSD, or am I? Or are we having divergent flashbacks?

99 was his Pro Bowl year, but I was more impressed with him in 2000. He was constently doubled, as we had no legitimate #2 reciever and even Walls got hurt. But yet he still had over 100 receptions, over 1000 yards. Sort of like Owens. You can forgive a drop or two when a pulls down 10 catch, 100 yard games even when he's being doubled.

Again, our perceptions/opinions from what we see on the field, are different. We are free to use whatever evidence we have at our disposal at our convienence in our arguments. Except Chewbacca. That's a no-no.

 

Brain, I think I will take your advice. Now it is just arguing for arguments sake, and I don't have the time or inclination for that.

 

Quite possibly the BEST quote of this entire debate. Even though I think highly of Moose and his abilities, I have to admit this is a great comment and probably a great way to end this debate....