Minter

No, I don't think you're out to just disagree with me. But I do think it hurts you when we don't agree. This whole thing is proof.

BTW, I hate the way Henning is half the time, but none of it has to do with the WCO or Seifert. You were wrong about that. I can't stand him being overconservative when he doesn't have to be, and that's totally on him.


>> What did Davis have to do with Foster?

WW and Foster are talking contracts. It went from there. Regardless, TBR started from being off topic, and saying something you don't like is allowed. FWIW, someone else brought up him replacing Fields at SLB, and I answered that post.



>> That's a mischaracterization.

That's your opinion, sure. I don't think I've been the one to get quite so beet-red about this shit, I think it's been you. But that doesn't mean you don't see it differently, I'm sure.

>>as someone who could play FS full-time.

yes.

No, I've never pretended I didn't say that. I've come down from that some, but still never felt he was going to be a "true" free. I always felt he was a zone guy, just as I do now.


Bah. 10-6. That's what I get for putting no thought into it, which is about where I value predictions. Which is why your "come on, coward, make a prediction" shit's so funny.


I have nothing wrong with being wrong. I certainly have no problem going out on limbs, or else I'd not have people bringing up Jeff Lewis on me. I outright spoke against Steve Smith being a starter when he was about to start playing the best ball of his life, and I regret that. I saw him in a certain role, and saw him starting without having been pushed. I stuck to that too hard, and it looked silly. And I owned it since. this, of course, after having defended the shit out of Smitty against you at his drafting.

I've got an issue with you coming in and declaring you're right, sure, because it's opinion. I'm not going to call myself "wrong" just because you say different, because that doesn't make it so. You know that too, which is why it's funny to see you get mad about me not doing so, pretending like you're going to kick my ass and pretending like you know where I am in life right now.
For what it's worth, I'm happy. Nothing's perfect, but I'm having a hell of a time being blessed and surrounded by family and friends, probably more than I deserve and certainly more t, since you expressed a concern.

FWIW, Sandy did that before the board ran him off, he said something about me having a lonely, sad Thanksgiving. It was funny.

 

Meeting my parents for a late lunch, and then a get together with friends after. Might go out after that, glad to see you're coming off the ledge. Hope you can survive till then, and please try not to say stuff like "if Magnus were a woman, I'd marry him", again, because that just gets embarassing.

 

Collin, I really enjoy reading your comments and you write very well. You also know a lot about FB, but you are a goddamn nut. Now I know you don't give a shit what I think, but you are still a fucking basket case. Lighten up and stick around.

 

No, it hurts me when you're being stubbornly stupid. Saying that Thomas Davis would fit at SLB isn't just wrong, it's just plain dumb. That's what bothers me. I can't stand it when people foster stupid ideas, just like the Dameyune Craig nonsense. What you said about Merriman was stupid, and what you've said about Davis has been stupid. For God's sake, you claimed that John Fox and Mark Richt were wrong for comparing Davis to Derrick Brooks just because you didn't want to agree that he was a WLB. I'll fully own up to the fact that I have serious issues, but that you would call an NFL college and a major college coach wrong about their own player just because you didn't want to "lose" to me shows some pretty serious issues of your own.

Absolutely. You can bring up anything, anywhere you want. My point was that you can't exactly claim that I'm the obsessed one when you're also bringing Davis up in many threads when I'm not even around. It's not just an occasional thing, you try to bring it up as often as you can because you're desperate to avoid just admitting that you're wrong.

Oh no, I agree that I'm getting furious and that you're enjoying this. My point was that you're characterizing it as whining, while I characterized it as enraging someone with a notoriously bad temper. Not particularly smart, if you think about it. Now granted, it would be silly for you to watch everything you say to make sure nothing ever pisses me off, and I wouldn't expect that, but I'm just pointing out that you're deliberately seeking to make me as mad as possible and that probably isn't wise.

See, that's what I'm talking about. Initially you were telling people that we should draft Thomas Davis because we needed a free safety. Then once you figured out that all respectable sources were seeing Davis as only a strong and not free safety at the NFL, you backed off that and moved to liking other players. Then in one of our arguments a month or so ago, you claimed that you never saw him as a FS at all.

I pointed it out because for years now you've said "I don't make predictions" just because you're scared of being wrong. Being wrong is not a big deal. It certainly happens to me often enough, as you can attest, but the important thing is to admit it when it happens, learn, and move on.

As did I, and I don't mind being wrong. I thought Smith was a crazy draft selection because he had tons of attitude issues at Utah, injury problems, and wasn't a competent receiver. I still hold to that. Drafting him was a bad idea given the circumstances, but it has really worked out well for us. I was wrong, and I don't regret it in the slightest. I learned something from the experience, which was that explosiveness is as important as receiving skills, especially in a rather unstructured passing offense like ours.

That's B.S. You and I were both against his drafting. Everyone was. Everyone thought it was absolutely nuts to draft a return man (no one saw him as a legitimate receiver at that point) with a third round pick when we had so many other needs. We were all pissed.

I am right about Davis not being suited for SLB. It's obvious, and I detailed about 800 reasons why. Hell, by the end of it even Black&Blue was agreeing that it didn't look good. HeadCase agreed as well, and he had as much reason to dislike me as you did. See, there are differences between things that might be true, and things that are. Julius Peppers might be able to play linebacker. Hell, he might be dominant at linebacker. But Mike Minter can't play linebacker, Kris Jenkins can't play linebacker, and Jake Delhomme can't play linebacker. Those are all opinions, but they're also correct. Thomas Davis can play linebacker, but he's only suited for weakside because of his small stature, lack of upper body strength, speed, and playmaking ability.

Dude, I'm not pretending. I have obvious anger management issues, and if you were in front of me, I would have beaten you badly.



But I would like to say that I'm sorry for bringing other people into our argument. That was wrong of me, and way out of line. I apologize for that. The rest I think you deserve - and then some - but my issues are strictly with you.

 

Stepping in lightly here.

Collin, the Panthers planned to play Gross at LT down the line when they drafted him. But he didnt get a single snap in practice or otherwise there his rookie year. The fact that he's back at RT now is irrelevant. Its very common to start future LTs somewhere else (RT, G), and let them get NFL experience, and then move them later.

Why couldnt the procedure also apply to Ss to LBs?

I tend to agree that they're probably not planning on playing Davis at SLB this year. Otherwise they would have tried him there before now.

I don't think that they're compelled to play a rookie at all positions they may be interested in him playing some time in his career in his rookie training camp, and I think he could end up there. Who knows.

 

Unfortunately you're coming in on the tail end of a long debate that has been beaten to death. But in specific relation to Gross, there are three factors to consider. One is that LT and RT are essentially interchangeable, with the main difference that you just generally want your better tackle at left tackle because it's normally the QB's blind side (plus you used to have better rushers on that side, but that's changing). Second, Todd Steussie was already our established starter at LT by that point. Lastly, teams will often break in a tackle at RT before moving him to LT after gaining some experience. That isn't the case for SLB and WLB.


But in rather brief summation of all the many points regarding why Davis isn't suited for SLB:

#1) The SLB's main responsibility is to engage and hold blockers. That's why you generally find them to be significantly larger players than WLBs.

#2) Thomas Davis is small. His playing weight at Georgia varied between 220 and 225. It is true that he got up to 230 for the combine, but players routinely add weight at the combine which they do not carry into the season. Even if he did remain at 230, however, there have been only a handful of players that light in the modern era of the NFL to play SLB.

#3) Davis has a weak upper body. His bench reps were pathetic, and one of the worst totals (if not the worst, I can't remember) of all the linebackers at the combine. This also shows up on film. Davis hits like a truck, but he doesn't jam or hold well at all.

#4) Davis has amazing speed for a linebacker. Speed is essentially wasted at SLB because of your engagement responsibilities. Instead teams usually look for speed at WLB because he is asked to cover far more ground.

#5) Teams almost universally play their "play-makers" at weakside linebacker because those are the players who will be in a position to fly around, making tackles and causing turnovers. SLBs do not have anywhere near the same ability to fly around, which is why so few teams put talented players at SLB. If you look at the depth charts around the leagues, the SLB list reads like a "Who? Huh? What?," while the WLB list includes Pro Bowlers and future Hall of Famers.


It's a good question, especially for those who don't know the differences between strongside and weakside linebacker. Most don't realize how very different those two positions are, and actually there are few linebackers in the entire league who are legitimate fits at both. Weakside linebacker actually has far more in common with strong safety than strongside linebacker.

 

You know what? I might drive up from Rockingham to the TBR get together if I know that both of you will be there. Now that would be entertainment.

 

I agree that he could be a WLB. I think that it's as limiting as it is helping, though, to take him from the strong side. I don't think SLB is a perfect fit. I don't expect every last person to be able to open up to it and think it's a great idea. But if it were that ridiculous, you'd be able to let it go, and you can't.

Good. I'm glad you know that, because you're not so much a dick as you suggest (though somewhere in the past, you obviously read some Ayn Rand and took it both as a blank check to be a pain in the ass, and as an out to cause people to not like you rather than to let it happen naturally), you're just not able to control yourself, IMO.

I think I have a problem that you'd call a very gracious compliment like "Derrick Brooks" as a tremendous limiting statement. I've suggested that many a time. Past that, see the WLB thing above.

No. Outright no. I think you're under some mistaken assumption that I said it in error - I believe it, and have since I said it, that he could play there on this team. He might never do it - he might try it and fail miserably. But right now I feel that he can.

If all that were true, and it may well be, then I would say I've got you where I'd want you - I mean, I could keep pushing and keep making you look less rational. If I wanted to.

I don't think I'm worried about, when you characterize other opinions (like my Branch opinion, after you called Manning and Gamble "awful") that you don't like, that others' opinions on Branch are "reluctant to change their opinions no matter what." That screams "you know, I stated my opinion, and yet people still don't feel exactly how I do."

If so, then I was wrong to have said so.

And believe it or not, even though you said it, that doesn't make it so. It's a conscious decision, and a rational one, IMO. I'm not great at it, and I don't seek it out that much. It has nothing to do with being wrong or right, since in the end being right about what record we are gains me nothing, and being wrong loses me nothing.

No. I had to defend the shit out of that, that and Jenkins both. I

And yet he brought it up as a possibility in the Foster thread, the one that you gave me shit for bringing it up. See, people would generally as often like to have a huge reason to say "ha, told you so." They know that there are tons of things in the realm of possibility in the NFL, and I do't get tons of shit about it, even from those that might not agree.

I don't think that his BP at combine was indicative of his strength. Sure, it concerned me too, and no, I don't think that he'll separate from blocks as well as you'd like at SLB. But I don't know that he can't, and I like his playing style for SLB - covering the TE, covering his gap, making plays in the backfield.

I also don't think that playmaking LBs are only weakside guys.

I know how you feel on that. I get that, all of it. I just stand where I stand. It wasn't said in haste or error. It wasn't said to screw around. I believe it's possible. It's somewhat outside of convention. I still believe it, and stand behind it.

You should also be apologizing for projecting a whole bunch of shit that's not even correct. But I'm not worried about how people perceive me, or else I wouldn't have publicized that I was laid off last year.

 

Agreed totally. I don't know where he'll end up (and have fully known that it's not under what some would call the "status quo" of standard NFL procedure).

I do know that it seems clear that he was meant to play against the run, and against the TE, and I have to think that's something they want. Enough that, if he were to play weakside with WW gone, I'd expect they'd move him over on 3rd down. I don't feel incredibly great about him shedding blocks, and I also know this staff drafted a guy just like that and have played him at SLB some, and MLB more. The other guys at MLB in the last couple years couldn't hold a gap like Davis can, either. And none of those guys can shed. Hell, Draft and Short (the two guys holding down SLB while Collin says we have a huge hole there) haven't great skill at shedding, either.

I also worry about his BP, but I've seen numbers that he's stronger than he lifted, too. Hell, he ran 4.55 at combine, but we know he's got 4.4 speed, so I'm not worried about his speed.

In the end, I see a player with boundless talent, and endless possibilities. I do feel like, if Fox felt like it was best for the team, he could make Davis fit at FS. Hell, we just play zone back there anyway, since Grant. But I felt like Fox drafted for the TE, something that's plagued us throughout time. And being that Davis could play LB, that's a bonus. But I gotta feel like if Fox had wanted just a WLB, he'd have pulled Johnson, who I'd feel less strongly about at SLB than Davis.

Hey, it might be. It might not be. Hell, Davis might bust. I do know he's a football player, and if they want to use him like Derrick Brooks, they'll make it work. If they want to make him Roy Williams, they will. If they want to blaze a new trail, they will, and in some ways, I'd expect to see him take on a non-traditional role at SS that would include some of the stuff I've been talking about, but in some ways, things that haven't really been done in the NFL in a while.

 

Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? If it wasn't ridiculous, I would be able to let it go. We disagree on Lucas, we disagree on Benson, we disagree on any number of things and it's fine because I don't know for sure that you're wrong. I can't let this go because it's absolutely moronic for you to say that Davis fits at SLB (and also because you keep bringing it up). It's so dumb as to be beyond reasonable consideration. Absolutely no one who knows the difference between a weakside linebacker and a strongside linebacker considers Davis to be a fit at both, because it's an incredibly stupid idea and obviously wrong. That's why I'm pissed, because you're saying something moronic, and you simply lack the ability to admit that you made a mistake. Instead you continue to perpetrate this fraud, and confuse people who don't know any better in the process. Now granted, it's your m.o. to later pretend like you never said the stupid thing, so next year you'll probably deny that you ever thought Davis would fit at SLB. I'm sure that'll drive me crazy too, although less crazy than this currently moronic position.

Dude, set aside whether or not being "like Derrick Brooks" means he should only play WLB. You went further than that. You said that John Fox and Mark Richt were wrong to compare Thomas Davis to Derrick Brooks because you don't think he is like Derrick Brooks. That's what I'm talking about. You are so completely obsessed with not admitting that you said something obviously stupid that you would actually say that you know more than Davis' college and professional coach about who he resembles. That's pure insanity. I might be wrong, but I don't think I ever say things as stupid as that.

And plenty of people believed that Dameyune Craig could have been a great starting quarterback in the NFL. They were stupid for believing it, weren't they? The team didn't believe it, did they? The team isn't giving Davis a shot at SLB even with Fields gone, are they?

Dude, everyone already knows that I'm a giant dick with anger management issues. That's a newsflash to exactly ... uhm ... no one. Yet in all this ranting, people can see that you consistently dodge the questions and lie about what you have and haven't said. I may come off looking like a crazy loon, but you come off looking like a stubborn asshole who said something incredibly stupid and wrong, but lacks the courage to own up to it.

Your Branch opinion was also wrong. Saying Branch shouldn't be a starting free safety is fine. Saying he's the worst safety we have is just stupid and wrong. It's indicative of bias, which has always been your biggest problem. You could never bring yourself to say anything negative about Seifert, you could never bring yourself to say anything positive about Henning, etc. You love or hate players and coaches for entirely irrational reasons and absolutely will not change your opinion no matter what. The fact that opposing teams chose to throw at Minter far more often than Branch didn't sway you at all, because you are absolutely not willing to ever change your mind. You're as closed-minded as a person can be. And as for Manning, he was awful, and I actually said that Gamble was nearly as bad. Not only do the stats back that up, but articles by analysts around the league do too.

Bullshit. No one defended that pick, and I'm sure every single person who was around the Lair at that time will confirm it. Absolutely all of us essentially responded with "Huh? What? Damn.," even those who steadfastly clung to "In Seifert We Trust."

Funny, because you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Then name me some playmakers at SLB. We've already been through this. I gave you a list of starters at WLB and it contained essentially every name casual fans are familiar with. SLB contained a lot of filler and a few names worth noting. Moreover, it's a statistical fact that WLB has far more tackles and forced turnovers on average than SLB. FAR more. But then again, facts never have been able to convince you of anything.

No, he doesn't. He has 4.5-4.6 speed, not 4.4 speed. He ran a 4.52 on his pro day at Georgia, and that was on what is considered a fast track.

Johnson runs around blocks and is not much of a hitter. That's why we didn't get him, even though he's bigger and stronger than Davis with equal or superior cover skills (which would make him a significantly better but still ill-fit at SLB). Davis does match up well with the TE as a strong safety, but it's a bit of a reach to say that was the main reason we got him. We got him because he hits like a freight train and makes plays. Davis doesn't have the best cover skills, so to suggest that as the reason we drafted him seems strange at best.