Drafting DL

And Gallery

 

Mags, aren't you the same guy that was against picking Gross because he was "maxed out" as a college player with little upside? and aren't you the same guy that defended Willig as a "quality player?" The Willig contention alone is pretty much enough to dismiss your opinion on OL.

I tend to agree with Thelt in that Gross has been an above average OL. he was a considerable disappointment in 2004 at LT but he faired muched better there last year and was our best OL IMO and has been since he was drafted IMHO. the facts that the franchise had down years when he played there has been more due to several key injuries as a whole and not because Gross was minimum as you contend.

 

Comparatively, I'd rather have the output of Bryant McKinnie, and he's nowhere near perfect. Davis is worse, sure. Not playing tackle is crappy. That's a step lower, but just a step. Gallery's a bust.

agreed, we're saying, for the most part, the same things. You're excusing him for "having to play LT" when he was supposed to be able to do that, though. He should be more than able. I don't think we drafted him with dreams of "adequate" in our heads.

 

Yes. And that's basically turned out to be true. He never faced elite competition in college, never worked out for scouts v/s his peers, he can't play on the left side, he gets walked back to the quarterback, and he had his best year in 2003, to address your "maxed out" comment. So yeah, I'll stand behind that statement.

Collin was the one who used Willig/Gross' stats in 2004 to Gross' detriment, not me.

I just defended him when you called him the worst thing to happen to this team and based your entire opinion on Willig on Foster's rushing TD to Willig's side in the playoffs.

Nice attempt at condescending dismissiveness, but you're out of your fucking mind.

You contradicted yourself in under ten words. Nice work.

And no, he wasn't our best OL in 05 or 06 - maybe 06 by default, and it was far from his best performance. Wahle made a freaking Pro Bowl. Since he was crap in 04 by even your assessment, how has he been our best lineman since he was drafted?

 

Giving up a first round pick for a lineman who can play at a high if not elite level at RT and is adequate at LT when necessary is not a bad exchange IMHO. It is not like we can not play him at LT. He can do it and protect the QB fairly well. He does get pushed back too much but he does not get flat out beat very often.

To me Gross is a lot like Minter or Rucker have been over the years, good but not great. You need guys like that because you are only going to have a handful of guys who are really elite.

 

When's he played at a high level the last few years? I must've missed out on that.

And yeah, we can play him at LT, to say we played him at LT. I think, despite his obvious lack of functional strength compared to where he should be, he is still a better fit at RT because left ends simply aren't as athletic.

also we didn't put top ten picks into Minter or Rucker - and I'd say Rucker gave us a few years of elite play. A Pro Bowl in 2004, Defensive Player of the Month awards in 2002, 2003. High QB pressure totals all five years, even when sack numbers weren't great. I'd love it if Gross had deserved a Pro Bowl or been relatively dominant in any phase of his play.
Minter hasn't given us that elite play, no. And again, not a top ten pick.

 

If we added a solid guy every time we had a top ten pick we would be a much better team. I would take Gross over Kerry Collins or Timmy B.

 

I do like both players. Carriker is the best run stopper in the draft and he is a great bull rusher. I think that is closer to an all around end than a 250lb speed guy that can only go around. I wouldn't be opposed to a DE with the 2nd.

I'll take the realist shot back as it sounded worse than the intent and you did mention to Pitch who the Elite players that could be there at our spot. I probably don't agree with that tag for all those, but I haven't checked all of them out either.

As far the safety hole, I think Weddle or Merriweather will be there with the 2nd and it wouldn't be much drop off from Nelson. I like Weddle probably more than most do, because I value his leadership qualities and being a film study geek. I think that will be sorely missed when Minter, Rucker and Morgan leave.

 

You're very happy with guys who are average. I think Gross should've been more. Even without the upside, I expected more over the last few years. I don't believe he's anywhere near what we expected we'd get, and if you're cool with that, great. I see a guy who's average, and "average" isn't something you expect to get with a high pick.

You don't draft John Fox guys with the 9 pick or the 14 pick. You don't draft a safety at 14 hoping for Chad Cota, although considering the way Cota was cannonized for two years' spotty starting, that's probably not the best example either.

 

We have solid ends.

I also disagree about "best run stopper in the draft", though you probably meant only at DE. He's up there for DE, sure. I also disagree that he's a great bullrusher, or a great rusher.

Weddle's probably better for this team than Merriwether, yeah. I like the football geek thing, and I like that he could play either spot - that's critical given that we have, essentially, two holes.

Problem is, you go safety in 2, you're going to have to turn around and go safety again in 3. The dropoff is fair, but there are some solid guys in 3 and later either way. Either way, we're coming out of the first day with one extra need, sure. So that's the hard part. I just don't think we can afford to be cheap with both safety spots.

And if we can get that impact end, that's something we can't get in 3. I just disagree Carriker's that guy.